Aaron (00:00:04):
Yeah, Can I just ask you to please introduce yourself?
Ruth (00:00:09):
Yeah. My name is Ruth Pickersgill.
Aaron (00:00:13):
Hello. Today I’m going to ask you a few questions regarding your career and about your
life working with different companies. My first question is what is WECIL?
West of England Centre for Inclusive Living
Ruth (00:00:36):
Okay. Well, WECIL was originally called the West of England Centre for Integrated Living. Then we changed the name to the West of England Centre for Inclusive Living, but it was set up way, way back in 19… I’m trying
to remember. 1990, I think. No, 1995 it was set up and it was set up because a
long time before that, in about 1988, there’d been a group meeting called the
Bristol Centre for Integrative Living Group, and it was a group of Disabled people who
were wanting to find ways to live independently and were looking to all the independent
living groups around the world, particularly in America. In California, in Berkeley,
California, there was quite a number of groups of Disabled students who started
independent living groups. So they were looking to America and to London and to other
places to try and see what a model of independent living would be.
Ruth (00:01:47):
And the whole idea was to support the same people to be able to live independently in the
community, in their own homes, employ their own PAs, personal assistants, get the advice
they needed, the funding they needed, and the support they needed to do that. So that’s
what WECIL was all about. That was the core of it really, but it ended up
quite quickly looking at a lot of other issues, like looking at housing issues, looking
at benefits issues, looking at… There was a project to support Disabled mothers. There
was a whole number of different projects, but the main aim was to support Disabled people
to have what we used to say choice and control, so to be able to control their lives and
have choice about where they live, who they lived with, and how they lived their lives.
Aaron (00:02:41):
The next question is how do you feel about WECIL adapting and
accommodating throughout the years when it comes to the Social Model of Disability?
Ruth (00:03:03):
Well, it’s interesting because I wasn’t involved in WECIL for quite long
time. I was there, I set it up with a number of other people and was the first director,
and then I was there for five years and then I left and went and did all sorts of other
things, moved to Leicester and various some things. I came back to
Bristol and eventually I became a Trustee of WECIL. So, for the
last few years, I’ve been a Trustee, which has a slightly different role, but throughout
that whole time, WECIL has been really clear that it comes from a Social
Model of Disability.
Ruth (00:03:31):
So even now when we employ anybody in WECIL, we always ask questions about
what do you think about the Social Model? How do you understand it? What does that mean
in practice? So I don’t think any organization gets it exactly right, but I think
WECIL is the organization I know that that is most able to talk about what
that means in practice and how it works. So I think it does still work from the Social
Model. So what it’s trying to do all the time is say, “Well, Disabled people aren’t the
problem. The problem is society.” And what we’re trying to do is get rid of all the
barriers that stop Disabled people doing what everybody else in society is able to do
really. So that’s how I’d describe it.
Aaron (00:04:16):
Hmm. Next question is, over the course of meeting people, how has this enhanced your
understanding of the Social Model and disability in general?
The Social Model
Ruth (00:04:40):
Okay. I mean, I first came across the Social Model in about 1985 and I was working
in London for an organization called Lambeth Accord, which was an
organization run and controlled by Disabled people that did employment and training
courses for Disabled people to get into work. And at that time, I met a man called
Dick [Lehman 00:00:04:58], who was a really, really clever Disabled guy. And he
was part of what was called the British Council of Disabled People. And
they advocated the Social Model. That was the main reason that they were there. And I
started listening to him and understanding the Social Model better. Then I started going
to meetings of the British Council of Disabled People and got to
understand more about the Social Model. And I think, at that time, there were a lot of
conversations going on about whether the social model worked for all Disabled people.
Ruth (00:05:39):
So there would be discussions about whether people who had mental health issues, for
example, considered themselves to be Disabled. And whether they followed the Social
Model, whether deaf people considered themselves to be Disabled and whether they followed
the Social Model and all of those conversations were going on during that time. And there
were also a lot of conversations about how to make the meetings much more accessible to
people with Learning Disabilities.
Ruth (00:06:05):
Because when the British Council of Disabled People started off, it was
mainly men and it was mainly wheelchair users who were the people who started it because
they were looking at independent living, meaning if you need physical assistance and you
need PA’s from that point of view. They weren’t necessarily thinking about the wider
issues that women wanted to think about having children or those sort of things. And they
weren’t also necessarily thinking about what independent living meant for people with
learning disabilities or mental health issues. So all of those things have been discussed
for years over time. And I think the Disabled people’s movement still hasn’t always got
this right. And still doesn’t always manage to include everybody and everything, but
that’s obviously the aim really.
Aaron (00:07:03):
Oh, so we’re on question three now. Throughout traveling to different countries with the
Social Model… No, sorry with… I think [inaudible 00:07:16] to say, what is the Social
Model like in different countries? Sorry, what do you think of the Social Model in
different countries?
Ruth (00:07:33):
Really, I mean, I’m not very up to date now to answer that, but I know in the
1980s, when I was working for Lambeth Accord, we were part of a
European project. So, a group of Disabled people, including myself, went to a number of
different countries to look at how they operated. And it was really interesting. So at
that time, for example, France was really behind and they kept talking about
handicap people and all of their Disabled young people were in special schools. Nobody
was in a mainstream school. They had big sheltered employment places. So all Disabled
people were put to work in the same place. Nobody had a mainstream job. So they were way
behind us. And yet when we went to places like Scandinavia and Sweden and
East Germany as well, because that was before Germany became one country, they
were way ahead of us.
Ruth (00:08:30):
So they had laws that protected Disabled people against discrimination, and they had all
sorts of policies and legislation that allowed Disabled people to live independently and
employ their own personal systems and to be paid to do that. So there were some countries
way ahead of us. And there were some countries, Greece was another one that was a
long way behind us. They were still shutting Disabled people away from everybody else in
all sorts of settings. So we were in the middle at that point. And I think probably
that’s where we are now. I don’t think we’re way ahead of other countries particularly,
but I think we’re not the worst is what I’d probably say.
Aaron (00:09:14):
Question four. What skills have you gained from working with Bristol City Council?
Educating Disabled young people
Ruth (00:09:22):
Right. Oh gosh. I think all sorts of things. I worked in different roles in the
City Council. So when I first worked for the City Council,
I was called Inclusion Manager. So my job was to try and move some of the Special School
provision onto mainstream sites. So I was working mainly with schools at that time. So I
learned an awful lot about inclusion and how inclusion works. And I still strongly
believe that the best model of education is for disabled people to be in mainstream
schools, but with specialist support. So, we moved for example, some of the classes that,
at that time, were at, what was it called, The Special School in Lawrence Weston,
Kings Weston Special School.
Ruth (00:10:05):
And we moved some of the classes into Sea Mills Primary School. So the
children were in a mainstream primary school, but they had their specialist teachers. And
I think that model works really well. So I learned lots about what works well in
inclusion and how to make schools more open and welcoming to Disabled young people. And
then I moved on [inaudible 00:10:27] in wider equality’s issues. So I was Equalities
Manager for Education, and now I’m a Councillor. So a lot of my work since has been
looking at much wider issues than just disabilities. I’ve been looking at race issues and
gender and sexual orientation and all of those issues and seeing the similarities and the
ways in which all those different groups are discriminated against and trying to work
with the council to again, get rid of the barriers, that mean people have different
outcomes.
Ruth (00:10:57):
And it’s really interesting at the moment because, in fact, I’m just working today on a
motion for the Full Council about the impact of the Coronavirus on
different groups. And clearly, it’s impacted horribly badly on people who are in
residential settings and on older people. But it’s also going to impact hugely on young
people because young people are going to have far less chance of getting a job than they
would have done if it hadn’t happened. So there’s a quality and it’s obviously had a huge
impact on Black and Asian and minority ethnic groups. So the equality is issues for me
are just so important in almost everything that the council does.
Inspirational moments
Aaron (00:11:40):
Final question. Throughout your career, what has been the most inspirational moment?
Ruth (00:11:49):
Oh, that’s a difficult one. I need a bit of time to think about that. No, I don’t know. I
can think straight away, actually. It would be 1988. So probably way before you
were born.
Aaron (00:12:01):
Right.
Ruth (00:12:03):
In 1988, we held the first big meeting of Disabled people in Bristol that
was organized by Disabled people. So a group of us [inaudible 00:12:14] and it was to
launch what we called the Avon Coalition of Disabled People. And I still
remember it to this day because we were really worried. We thought, “Oh, I don’t know if
anyone’s going to come. We don’t know many Disabled people. We don’t know whether
Disabled people are going to want to come to a Disabled people’s meeting because they
won’t be used to doing that. They may not want to come. They may think it’s like a Day
Centre and may not want to have anything to do with it.”
Ruth (00:12:38):
And then it was at Barton Hill Settlement. And then when we arrived, suddenly
people started coming and we ended up with 86 people arriving and the room was absolutely
packed and it was really exciting. And it was the first time in Bristol that
Disabled people had organized something for themselves, about themselves and all the
speakers were Disabled. All the audience was Disabled and it was just a really exciting
thing. And we always say that was the beginning of the Disabled people’s movement in
Bristol. I think that was definitely the highlight of what I can think about in terms of
disability in my career.
Aaron (00:13:16):
I don’t know if you answered this question already, but what was WECIL
like in 1995 and how did it accommodate Cerebral Palsy?
Ruth (00:13:32): WECIL didn’t start until the nineties. So it wasn’t around as early as
that, but once it did start in the nineties, I mean a lot of the people who were involved
had Cerebral Palsy. So that was fundamental to the way it worked. So I think one of our,
well, at that time, when we started off, our chair was somebody called Barry Scrace, who still works for Council, who had Cerebral Palsy, absolutely amazing chair of
the organization. So he was quite an inspiration and people like Mark Williams,
quite a lot of people who were involved, [inaudible 00:14:11], a lot of people who had
Cerebral Palsy. They were very important as part of a movement.
Ruth (00:14:18):
But the other thing that was interesting about that was the organization
Scope had a project called The Disability Advice Centre. That was part of
Scope and they decided they wanted to join WECIL because they’d rather be
managed by Disabled people than be part of the charity. So when WECIL
started, the Disability Advice Centre that was managed by somebody called Jerilyn [Meaghan 00:00:14:44], they all moved over and became part of WECIL. So
right from the start, scope was involved with that in transferring its project over to
WECIL to help WECIL develop. So yeah, it’s always been
important for WECIL and what WECIL does.
Wrapping up
Aaron (00:15:04):
Thank you very much for taking the time to be part of this interview.
Ruth (00:15:15):
Oh, it’s a pleasure.
Aaron (00:15:17):
It’s an honor and a privilege to be given the opportunity to speak to you today.
Ruth (00:15:23):
Well, thank you very much. No, I love to speak. I love talking about the old days. When
you get old to my age, you just like talking about these things. So it’s been great.
Thank you. Okay. And thanks for setting up the meeting. Yeah. Good luck with the project.